Blogger: Wendy Lawton
One of the most frustrating attitudes that has grown out of the new publishing paradigm is a them vs. us mentality. If you’ve spent any time at all reading writing blogs it won’t be long until you come across this mindset.
Here’s how it sometimes reads:
- Traditional publishers have long made their money on the backs of writers.
- They pay a pittance and they expect the world.
- They only really get excited about famous authors or celebrity authors.
- They seem to close ranks to keep talented writers out.
And agents are not immune. According to some of the recent anti-agent screeds:
- We are yet another filtering system put in place to keep talented writers out.
- We live in the pockets of traditional publishing.
- Without traditional publishing, agents would not exist.
- We are a soon-to-be-obsolete profession.
I’m not going to take time to debate these erroneous suppositions. Instead, I want to talk about the “them vs. us” mindset. It doesn’t have to exist.
Let’s say you decide to build your own home using your own ideas and a friend who is a draftsman. Do you have to trash architects, contractors and the professional trades in order to justify taking up a hammer and digging in? Of course not. The finished house will speak for itself. That’s just like the traditional publishing industry. They have the experience and the track record but that’s not to say that vision and hard DIY work will not create a wonderful book (or house). Both traditionally built homes and owner built homes can exist side by side. The architects and contractors of the world are not out to get you. And both traditionally published books and self-published books can exist side by side.
It’s the same thing when you go to sell that home. You can choose a professional real estate broker who’s done many deals and can protect you from all kinds of unforeseen pitfalls or you can sell it yourself with help from a lawyer or a For-Sale-By-Owner company. If you decide to sell it yourself, do you have to be resentful toward the realtors who are unwittingly keeping you out of multiple listings? It makes no sense, just as it makes no sense to resent literary agents.
By the same token, shame on us in traditional publishing if we look down our nose at self-pubbed books. We talk about some of the pitfalls of self-publishing, like how to seperate the sublime from the dreck and the challenge traditionally published books share–discoverability, but a self-published book may be an absolute gem. Some of my own clients are dipping toes into self-publishing with our blessing. Let me tell you, those books are superb even though traditional publishing found no slot for them.
If you are a self-pubbed author, you benefit from some of the advertising and marketing done by traditional publishers and libraries that regularly whet readers’ appetites for reading. And, again, if you are self-pubbed author, we hope you benefit from much of the information we agents offer daily in our blogs. It’s our way of giving back.
So, your turn. What is it that keeps us from appreciating each other?
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“The finished house will speak for itself.” I think that should sum up our thoughts and feelings. At the same time, I think each writer needs to understand her strengths and weaknesses. Personally, this builder/writer needs the guidance of traditional builders.
And wont it be great when all “factions” are rolled into one endeavor– to create the best read ever and to find the perfect readers for each book.
Slightly off-topic, but I think I forgot to mention what a cool idea the QR images for your books is, Carol.
That sort of innovative use of technology is great for the industry as a whole, not just a particular “faction” of it!
I agree with Carol on all counts. 🙂 I agree, the “Us vs Them” mentality is detrimental to both sides. Tearing each other down is never beneficial. Perhaps some people do this to validate their own choice to self/trad pub.
Someone close to me has self-pubbed. She happens to have an “entrepreneurial spirit.” Watching her go through the process taught me a lot. I think this helps her to be comfortable with the aspects of self-pubbing that scare me. 🙂 I feel much more comfortable with the pursuit of traditional publishing.
In either case, the book will speak for itself once it’s published.
I’m guessing many of the traditional publishers, large and small can trace their roots back to that entrepreneurial spirit. Your friend is so smart in that she recognized that gift within herself. That’s what it takes to be successful in the many different tasks required of a publisher.
Wendy, I have friends who are both traditionally published and self-published authors, as well as agents and editors. Nice people, all, and they have my respect.
it’s my guess that the “us vs. them” mentality is kept going because self-pubbed authors feel somehow excluded from the in-group (the stepchildren at the family reunion, so to speak), plus the difference in monetary return when there’s less need to share the income. Not saying any of these are valid arguments–just that they’re out there.
And I’ll agree that the finished product should and does speak for itself.
If someone were wildly successful at self-pubbing, my guess is they would be glad to give away a portion of that money to get help with editing, marketing, and all the tasks done by a traditional publisher. Before they would even know it, they would have a clone of traditional publishing.
A few years ago, I toured the Mark Twain house with my son’s 5th grade class. (Field trip = Dante ring.) There was a Twain quote in the foyer: “An open mind leaves a chance for someone to drop a worthwhile thought in it.” Whenever bloggers go to war, and yes, it sometimes feels like combat, I remember this quote and wonder what would happen if both sides opened the cerebral door just an inch. Imagine the collaborative possibilities.
Interesting, Kathryn. I know many traditional publishers have opened a division to help with self-publishing in that spirit. Perhaps they wanted to find those writers with a team entrepreneurial spirit.
Of course, they’ve faced much criticism for it, which doesn’t make sense, since, in a way, they are putting their imprimatur on self-publishing.
An open mind– a good suggestion. It will be interesting to see how all this shakes out.
Wendy, I couldn’t agree more. My “real” debut novel is coming out through WestBow, div of Thomas Nelson. I compared a lot of Play for Pay “publishers” and found them to be best suited for me. Here’s the thing…if my house is worth selling, I’ll have a better chance of it being seen by some serious buyers. I’m hoping that the creme does rise to the top, regardless of which cow it came from.
I think we need to focus on the end product and the end goal: we all want the same thing. We’ve just chosen different roads to get there. And that’s okay. If we’re writing inspirational stories, ones we hope will touch others’ lives, then it doesn’t matter how that story came about, in my opinion. And publishers and agents are wanting the same thing too–to get those stories out so lives are changed. Yes, of course they cannot accept all the stories and of course it is a business too. But in the deeper parts of all this, I have to believe that we all love a good story and that we want stories to effect change.
And you are right, the reader is the end judge. Not any of us in publishing.
As an agent my job is to see all the potential problems before they happen so I can see plenty of potential pitfalls to self publishing. But I can see plenty of pitfalls in traditional publishing as well.
Wendy,
I am not sure what keeps us from appreciating each other. It’s an issue that exists in all realms though. We tend to surround ourselves with “like-minded” people who reinforce our beliefs. Then, when we encounter someone with a “different” way, it is difficult to value their contribution.
In our writers group, we have a mix of traditionally published and self-published. We have managed to support and applaud all who have met their goals…whichever way they did it!
Thanks for encouraging us to “all be friends!”
I think that’s what it needs to be– supporting each other in their triumphs and in their disappointments. Because both arms of the publishing industry have plenty of both.
Indeed! That’s one of the greatest strengths of this community, is that there is such a diverse array of folks here, each one giving a perspective that helps us all grasp that which is greater than ourselves.
“What is it that keeps us from appreciating each other?”
Envy.
Envy is a horrible malaise that twists and distorts perception, fouling the clearest minds and souring everything it touches. If we allow envy to corrupt our hearts, it’s impossible to appreciate much of anything. It isn’t even really a matter of wanting what another has, it’s the idea that somehow, if they have it, we cannot.
Some people will never grasp that one person’s success does not require the failure of anyone else. There is room for all to succeed.
I think you’ve hit the core problem. I love your last paragraph– that’s the truth, succinctly and powerfully.
Wendy says: “And both traditionally published books and self-published books can exist side by side.”
I agree. I have seen NYT bestselling authors selling few self-pub ebooks every now and then with a measure of success, and still be able to continue producing trad pub novels, which are also in ebook format.
As an unpublished author still tinkering with my MSS, I haven’t reached the fork in the road where I decide whether to self-publish or be traditionally published. While I prefer trad pub, I am not sure whither goeth my MSS yet. If one door closes, and another door opens, then I’ll have to make a decision.
I like your house-building analogy. Once the house is done, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. There are some terrible DIY constructions (Property Brothers have plenty of examples of this), but there are also some poorly constructed traditionally built houses. Of course, there are also beautiful houses built in either way. Whichever the route, I think the goal should be excellence from start to finish.
I like the idea of agents being advisors to their clients on both routes of publishing. I think that when I am ready to query, I will be looking for agents who are savvy in both self-pub and trad pub primarily because in both cases, there are binding contracts that need to be dissected, among other things. Speaking for myself, I think that in the new publishing paradigm, agents are even more necessary to authors, regardless of how they would like to be published.
Jan, our colleague, Rachelle Gardner, wrote an eBook to help writers decide if self publishing is for them or not. If you look over to our feature, “what we’re reading” you can just click on the link because I’m reading it now.
Thank you for the reminder! I get her blogs on RSS, and I remember her mentioning the new book. I was going to wait, but now that you’ve mentioned it again, I think I’ll buy it now rather than later. Thanks!
I completely agree with your last point, Jen. I don’t quite understand over-zealous writers who claim that there is no role for agents in the shifting publishing world.
Some writers will still just not want to deal a whole lot with the business side of things, and having an advisor who is wise in such areas will be appealing to those writers.
Even writers who are versed in the market and business side of writing could use an advisor, and help with the workload. I imagine that the role of agents’ might start to incorporate the role of a traditional publishers’ marketing team.
Furthermore, I’d guess that there will still be readers who don’t want to bother with less-than-stellar books, so the waning prestige that publishing houses confer onto authors may become something that various agents have, as readers know from familiarity with their other clients that they represent quality work.
Larry says: “I imagine that the role of agents’ might start to incorporate the role of a traditional publishers’ marketing team.”
A great point! I hadn’t thought of that, but that would be another reason for a self-pub author to have an agent who has the pulse of the market and knows people in the industry such as freelance editors, copyeditors, publicists, and book cover artists.
IMO the self-pub author is his own little publishing company, much like the person who builds his own house is his own General Contractor.
I like Wendy’s construction analogy more and more. Ultimately, if a writer is called to write (referring back to Janet’s blog from yesterday), then he/she would be wise to depend on the Lord to build a solid writing career.
“Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it…” (Psalm 127:1a).
Indeed! I’d say that the wisdom you quoted shows how foolish the fighting amongst the different industry “factions” can be.
Been reflecting on a way to contribute, Wendy, as you said that there are some facets of the discussion you don’t want to argue. I respect that, but at the same time, when those very same facets are what some would say are the source of the division, then it is hard for me to find a way to meaningful way to contribute without addressing those elements of the discussion.
But, I shall try, as I wouldn’t say that those are the only sources of division, and also, what you seek with this blog post, how to reconcile the divisions within the industry, is worthwhile, and certainly different perspectives on how to do that is just as important as finding what are the sources of those divisions!
First, to address what may be sources of division not listed:
I like the analogy of house-building, but I would amend it. I’d say that some of the resentment authors have is that they create the blueprints, build the house, and then the zoning board tells them that their house doesn’t meet the regulations put forth by the community.
And if they want to build a house here, they will have to follow the blueprints of someone else.
All the while the (publishing) houses all around them are falling down.
Thus, a source of contention between authors and others is the perceived incompetence of the non-author side of the industry for the direction the industry is tumbling towards. After all, there are only three possible parties at fault:
1. Writers. They are incompetent, and thus readers don’t want to read the dreck writers toss out.
2. Publishers, marketers, acquisitions editors, et all: They simply aren’t giving readers what they want, or giving potential writers a reason to write a book (or a book readers would want to buy) in the first place.
3. Readers: They simply have no taste. We should blame them for not buying more books.
I cannot speak from the perspective of a publisher or any non-writer, but from this writers’ perspective, I certainly don’t blame readers, which means the captains of the industry have much explaining to do for why their ships are sinking.
I’d say related to that, the reason that self-pubbed authors who find any measure of success are contemptuous of the traditional publishing industry, is that they can literally point to their sales figures and say, “I knew it was worthwhile. Readers know it is worthwhile. You didn’t have any faith in me or my work. Why should I have faith in you and your publishing company when you clearly cannot back up the reason for your position, which is to acquire titles that sell?”
If a writer creates for the sake of creating art, this can be all the more easily turned into gloating: “I make art that sells, you and your whole industry are busy chasing the latest trend, and going out of business all the while.”
Simply put:
Writers may be contemptuous of the traditional publishing industry, because the old ways aren’t working, the old guard are going out of business, and literally, it seems traditional publishers would rather literally cease to exist than alter their relationship to writers.
Now….
How do we reconcile authors and the traditional publishing industry?
The wonderful thing is, I think most of the work will be done for us!
The market will decide. Content-creators will go to where they feel they can get the maximum return on their investment, or reach the most people with their story; readers will choose what price-point they are willing to pay for a book, and what format they want their books to be. Companies which can adapt to these changes will be able to create relationships with content-creators and readers, and those that do not will go out of business.
Writers are often told that their writing isn’t good enough to meet the demands of the market, and so are declined for publishing deals, so it is quite interesting to watch as the practices of publishing houses are told that they don’t meet the demands of the market themselves.
I also find it interesting when noting the changes going on in the marketplace causes consternation amongst industry professionals: writers are used to getting rejection form after rejection form, so I guess we’re used to being told that we’re not good enough and / or clearly not capable of meeting the demands of the market: why non-writers in the industry feel they are somehow allowed to be free from such obvious observations on their performance in regards to the business side of the industry.
To that point, since the question of perception of business competence has been noted as a source of division, outside of the market itself addressing it, what can publishers and others do to address this division?
First, the tone to which non-writers in the industry address the changes in the industry, and the qualms writers have about business practices (and business competence) has to change.
If it is good enough for writers to be constantly be told they are not good enough, or worth placing any faith in, and be expected to maintain a constant demeanor of professionalism and courtesy, the same thing should be expected of industry professionals when writers are directing their opinions of the industry, and industry professionals, towards said industry professionals.
There is too much of a passive-aggressive tone in many industry blogs, tweets, etcetera, regarding self-pubbed writers and the changes that are coming about from readers and writers asserting themselves in the marketplace. (While I certainly understand that while explaining the view writers may have about the competency of non-writer industry professionals could have come across as quite unpleasant, I tried to capture just why it is such a division, and why it is. Explaining it, I felt, required fully showing how such a divsion expresses itself when self-pubbed authors even consider the nature of traditional publishers).
Second, publishers need to discuss their successes more. They need to show why they are still relevant. Not only their successes, but what they can intrinsically offer that other publishing methods cannot. Writers know that it is a publishing industry, so show why potential writers should do business with your publishing house.
How can writers reconcile with publishers?
I really don’t know.
Writers already have to prove themselves to agents, publishers, the markets, their friends, family, and church in regards to their validity as an author.
They have to prove their worth to themselves every
Single.
Time.
They pour their soul onto the page.
I’m reminded of something Janet said in regards to yesterdays blog:
“A writer would surely be disappointed thinking that they are entering into a traditional employer-employee relationship when they enter the traditional publishing world.”
The relationship is defined by its inherent inequality.
Why should the effort to reconcile thus be an equal burden to both parties?
Larry, I can tell that you put a lot of thought into this issue and you give us a lot to think about. (And I have to personally thank you because I’m co-teaching a workshop at Mount Hermon about self-publishing vs. traditional publishing and you’ve given me much fodder for this session.)
You’ve made valid points, especially when we lump everyone together into two camps. The problem comes in that those camps are made of individuals– some good and some not so good. When you say traditional publishing, I see individual editors, marketing people and publishers and I wish you could meet them. By the same token, when you talk about self-published authors we see the best and the worst; the wildly successful and the struggling. To talk about an issue like this we need to lump them together in order to make observations but there is so much good about traditional publishing just as there is so much good about these new publishing entrepreneurs.
I guess the answer is that we all have to keep open minds as Kathryn Elliot suggested. We are all going to learn from each other. I know I am.
Indeed. When you talked about the different “factions” in response to Carol, it really was a word that reflects the mentality of many engaging in the debate….to the point where they no longer engage in debate or discussion, but fight and divide all of us who care about this industry and artform.
Though….maybe it is necessary? Not so much the vitriol, but the passion. On one side there is an industry fighting hard to keep the status quo, and extend the status quo to the changes occurring, so as to retain relevancy and market leadership.
On the other is a nascent market, still struggling to determine its’ own identity; it has to fight hard to keep the old guard from imposing the old ways upon it. This new industry is filled with a mixture of folks who outright fled the old industry, and those who simply have little or no market knowledge at all. These folks who establish the parameters of this new market fight hard to have their ideals expressed, not just in their product but in the market itself.
Then there are the readers, who have a wide array of multimedia entertainment options to choose from. Theirs is the passion which both “factions” seek to win favor.
I find, quite often, both factions to be utterly foolish. Do they not recognize how fascinating it all is? Have they no time for awe and wonder?
Glad I could help with the discussion today at Mt. Hermon, Wendy, and may you and all the community members there find joy, awe, and wonder with the fellowship shared there!
What a great comment! You said it.
Great analogy, Wendy. Also, thank you for your attempt at peacemaking. There is no reason why one group should despise the other (either that self-pubbed authors should rail against traditional publishers or literary agents or that agents and publishers should disparage self-pubbed authors). This is especially true among Christians. Respect is always a good thing. Mutual respect is even better.
Blessings!
Well put, Christine.
Thank you, Wendy. 🙂
What wonderful insights, Wendy–thanks. I was thinking just today how easy it is to let a root of bitterness creep in about so many things, and how we need to guard against that. We’re all ultimately on the same side, anyway, right? 🙂
I’m sorry I came into this conversation so late today! I loved your analogies, Wendy. I agree with everything you said. I find myself defending all types of publishing – whether it’s defending traditional publishing with my father-in-law who thinks I should just self-publish, or my aunt who thinks self-publishing is awful and I should never consider it! There are also people who debate with me about the wisdom in seeking a literary agent. It seems everyone has an opinion (and the majority of them have no experience in the publishing industry). It all boils down to using wisdom, seeking knowledge and balancing it all out with common sense.
I have to say I honestly do not understand this division which shouldn’t exist as we are to build up one another in the body, not tear down.
I have toes dipped in both the self and traditional publishing worlds. And I have author/writers friends that have chosen differently for various reasons also. My children’s books aren’t big sellers but are dearly loved, read, and recommended by those that buy the books. Surprisingly, not one reader has ever made a negative comment about purchasing this self-published series, though I have experienced criticism in the circle of my profession.
We stand to learn much from our readers. They simply desire well-written books. End of subject.
I’ve heard the recent agent bashing. So sad. I am THRILLED to have an agent I trust, respect, and I know I’m blessed to be her client. So much time, effort, and expertise goes into representing literary clients. I think what we are experiencing in the current ever-changing industry is a lack of mutual respect. While we still have the freedom to make our own personal choices, a spirit of gratefulness is God honoring. I chose to seek an agent for my novels after my self-publishing experience. This is more of a reverse of the new trend.
Yes, change is a good thing, and there will always be change. But there is much to be said for the integrity of experience, time-tested knowledge, and the quality of the final product.
America offers more than other country on this planet to it’s citizens, I do not take those freedoms lightly. Time wasted bashing can be more wisely spent writing, rewriting, editing, and thanking God for the blessings bestowed upon us. We all know who we are ultimately accountable to for our own individual words and actions. In the meantime, what example are we setting for the secular world? They are always watching us.
For the record, my agent rocks!
“In the meantime, what example are we setting for the secular world?”
That’s something I hadn’t considered: when I talk about the industry, I generally include both the secular and Christian markets, as well as magazines, literary journals, etcetera, in regards to what I find fault with. I forget that there are those who are primarily writers for the Christian market, so that sometimes what I state might not make sense to them, as what I discuss might have more relevancy for the secular / general market, or sub-categories within that market.
What a great article, Wendy. Thank you. I’m a published author that went in the wrong way. I didn’t do my homework before I clicked submit, and honestly, I got myself into a mess. (Embarrassed about it? Absolutely!)
I learned from that mess. A lot of things about myself as well as publishing.
Yes. I can do this on my own. Do I want to? No.
I want an agent and the help that agent offers, and I’ll be happy paying them their 15% ~ because they know more about publishing than I do. The workman is worthy of his hire. I don’t want just an agent, though. I want someone who is going to tell me what I need to hear, when I need to hear it ~ with kindness, of course.
I’ve found that readers will pretty much tell you without that kindness, when your ‘friends’ won’t say a word. Go figure, right?
I want to become a better writer, and to do that, I want an honest agent that isn’t afraid to put their name behind my book and help me find a home for it. The same goes with a publisher. I look at it as the highest honor a writer can receive ~ a publisher (and agent) that is pretty much saying they believe in that book.
I honestly don’t understand the negativity between the two. Self-publishing may be for some that are more savvy and educated than I am. I say, more power to you, and good luck. But I know that’s not the road for me, and the way I see it? We’re on the same team with the same goal.
Putting good books out there for readers. What works for one, may not be the road for another.
Just my thoughts.
If a writer wants to learn the market, write to the market and see their book on the market, then traditional publishing can help them reach their goal.
If a writer wants to be talented to the point of only writing for himself/herself and needs only to be true to their art, then self publish it. Market away and enjoy.
Neither of these courses should evoke a negative feeling from those on the other path. It’s the difference between being a farmer who belongs to a coop and one who sells their wares at the farmers’ market. Folks will buy both depending on their wants and needs.
Does it have to be either-or?
I don’t write “to the market” but I write what I want to read, and yet I would give trad pubs first dibs. That doesn’t mean down the road somewhere I might not self-pub some of my other works.
I think a writer can have it both ways in the new publishing normal.
Just my two denarii…
Of course you can do both. Don’t farmers who grow soy also sell their gardened tomatoes by the road? 🙂
The one thing I encounter most is a lack of understanding on the self-pubbed side about how traditional publishing works. I had a conversation recently with a self-pubber–that I had to end because she wasn’t getting the point–where she expressed the belief that AUTHORS negotiate contracts with traditional publishing houses and agents take their cut without doing anything. That is sooo not how it works. All attempts to educate this person otherwise fall on deaf ears. This person repeats this point over and over and over and over, no matter how many agented authors tell this person otherwise.
There is a real problem out there with lack of quality in the self-pub world. I’ve been burned more than once and so am very reluctant to spend my money on those books. I’m more likely to be burned by a self-pubbed book than I am a traditional one. This same person I had the conversation with recently also doesn’t seem to understand what an editor does or why one is necessary. This person keeps coming back to formatting issues equals editing and when traditional houses screw up formatting it’s more of a reason to not go with them. I won’t type what it made me think, because it might offend some people.
Self-pubbing can be a good thing. It’s been an amazing choice for one of my CP’s who is very prolific and writes a lot of hard to sell stuff. She’s exceeding her personal expectations. On the flip side, self-pubbers constantly telling those of us pursuing traditional that we should do it ourselves and pocket ALL the money, aren’t doing themselves any favors with writers like me. In order for me to feel comfortable self-pubbing something I’m still looking at a a minimum $1500 investment up front for editing and a professional cover. That’s not me keeping all the money.
There is fault on both sides. But for self-pub preachers, taking the time to learn how traditional publishing actually works and what all a publishing house really does, could save a lot of argument. And learn what editing really means, and think about investing in one before you slap your next book up on Amazon.
“There is a real problem out there with lack of quality in the self-pub world. I’ve been burned more than once and so am very reluctant to spend my money on those books. I’m more likely to be burned by a self-pubbed book than I am a traditional one.”
Hmmm…I wonder how many readers feel the same way, but the price-point mitigates it?
For example, many reviews of self-pubbed books might say “There’s some problems with the prose / editing / etcetera, but it was only a dollar.”
I find this to be a relief. There is the “Itunes Effect”, which basically says that due to Itunes, Netflix, and other such services, that folks have gotten used to paying very little, or nothing at all, for various goods.
So the fact that folks still recognize, in the publishing world at least, that quality costs more is a relief.
What is it that keeps us from appreciating each other?
This is a question I have daily, but not just in the publishing world. Unfortunately, we humans tend to look down on those who do things differently than they do. As if there was only one way to do something. The truth is we are all different, with different strengths and weakness. We each need to make decisions based on what we have, what we can do, and what we may need others to help us with.
Self-publishing has the benefit in allowing for niche markets that traditional publishing is hesitant to venture into. The self-published author has greater control over the final product. However, the question is do you want, or should you have all that control. The answer is different for each author. Some may want to focus on creating the story and the characters and let a team of experts handle all the rest. There is not one best way to produce a novel. There may be a best way for each author, but it won’t be the same for each.
I’m pretty sure fear is the culprit. Fear of embarrassment due to being wrong, losing revenue, losing a job, getting rejected by a publisher or agent.
I agree there’s too much vitriol on this issue, by every category of people in the industry. To extend your metaphor, many contractors are laughing at the houses built by the diy-ers.
The barbs being thrown from the trade publishing side are just as many and harsh as those coming from self-publishers. In an e-mail loop I was in, one experienced writer in the Christian industry said you aren’t a real writer until you’re published by a royalty publisher or in print magazines. In another post he called us self-published writers lazy, not wanting to make our books the best they can be through competent editing.
It seems that many who have come up through trade publishing believe if you don’t make it the same way they made it then you haven’t made it. That’s how I see their stance.
“…one experienced writer in the Christian industry said you aren’t a real writer until you’re published by a royalty publisher or in print magazines.”
I don’t know if the Christian market is the same as the secular market in this regard, but my experience with the secular market has shown that the only folks getting printed in the high-paying lit journals (or even the can’t-afford-a-gas-station-taco-with-what-they-pay-ya-mags) are self-indulgent egoists who defy all laws of physics (and good taste) with how the journals filled with their lighter-than-air prattle float off towards some far off nebula, to a planet filled with bearded professors and wide-eyed moonbats who know no greater substance in their literary diet.
The experienced writer you spoke of sounds like a dolt, a dullard, and a drama queen.
I’d say he’d find fine company with the bearded professors and moon-bats!
Wendy, you’ve been very brave in tackling some tough subjects lately. I wish this particular discussion could generate some changes on both sides of the issue, but I’m not all that hopeful. Even so, I thought I’d offer another viewpoint. I’m a recently self-published writer/author (which depends on which side of the fence you lean to) who has always wanted and expected to have an agent—eventually—once I learned everything I need to learn and did everything I needed to do…. I guess I’ll have to approach it from the POV of the SP.
I think one of the things that would help would be to recognize some of the reasons some folks go SP:
Lack of an agent: Not every good writer will ever be represented by an agent. We have to be realistic about this. There are more writers than there are agents to manage them or publishers to publish them. Telling someone if they will keep doing all the right things, they will get an agent and a publisher is not realistic for all the reasons everyone knows by heart. Even when the work is perfect, it has to be the right book by the right person to the right person at the right time. My favorite example is the experience of a traditionally published author. Madeleine L’Engle, who was already a published and well-known author, shopped A Wrinkle in Time for ten years before someone took a chance on it—and it became a Newberry Medal winner. I’ll never be another Madeleine L’Engle, but I can take comfort in the fact that she traveled this same road.
Conflicting advice and/or no advice: (1) I’ve received totally opposite advice as to how a thing should be done by different agents. Can both be right? How am I to know/choose? (2) I was told by an acquisitions editor that I should be proud because my manuscript made it all the way to the top before it got rejected (implying there were several levels of individuals who had to take a look at it each before it went to the next). Unfortunately, she didn’t give me a clue as to why that top person rejected it. How can it be good enough that everyone else says yes? (3) I’ve done critique groups and gotten rave reviews on a piece that I then sent to a professional editor who tore it apart (nicely). I could go on and on. What one likes another doesn’t like.
Criticizing vs. mentoring/educating: Instead of berating self-published writers for poor editing, tell them some of the trade secrets that aren’t really secrets, just unknown to them. (Here, I’m speaking specifically to agents and writers’ groups for any number of reasons that don’t belong in this discussion.) For example, book publishers use CMS rather than MLA or AP. That will make a difference in some of the “errors” that self-publishers make. If this information is available on the ACFW or SinC websites, I sure missed it! In none of the writing how-to books I’ve studied, in none of the college writing courses I’ve taken, in none of the non-college writing courses I’ve taken, in none of the criticism I’ve read do I remember anyone ever mentioning this “well-known” fact. I probably should have known this. Given my background, I probably should have had enough sense to look it up. I didn’t, and not everyone is even aware that there are writing style guides out there.
Actions and Words: First, let me say that I firmly believe if a person wants to join a group, they should either accept the rules of that group or find another group. I’ve done that. I don’t expect either of the writers’ groups to which I belong to change their rules for me. That said, actions do speak louder than words. I belong to ACFW and SinC. While this conflict and discussion goes on in both of these groups, there is one difference. SinC includes self-published works and authors in its list of members published. ACFW includes only traditionally published works and authors in its list of members published.
I’m not so naive as to think that everyone tries to put forth his or her best efforts. I understand that some writers believe the first words they write are given to them directly from God and so should not be edited, and I am not being sarcastic. But lumping all self-publishers together is about as useful as lumping all publishers—vanity to “traditional”—together.
All of that said, I don’t understand the idea that some folks apparently think everyone should self-publish. I’ve not gotten that idea from what I’ve read. I do get the idea that many with an agent and/or a publisher think the rest of us should slave away until we are as fortunate. I sure wish I had that many years left! Now, I’ve got to back to editing my next book (to the best of my ability) or I’m going to miss my own deadline!
Thanks Sylvia, I really enjoyed reading your comment. As an unpublished author, I feel that I am caught in the dilemma that you discussed. If I self-publish then my projects won’t have the same value…they are looked down on. I heard so many authors with agents trash-talk self-pub works. On the other hand, I am a member of EMACW where I recently listened to a self-pub author describe the tricks to his trade as he rakes it in on his books. He basically told us that “low profile” authors fare little chance of making it in the traditional publishing world. So what is an author to do?
Indeed! I’d make the challenge to those bashing agents to come over here to the Books and Such blog, read some of the topics, and then try to say that all agents are either anti-author or unwilling to address the important issues of the industry!
I have my qualms with some of the accepted practices of agents in general, but I wouldn’t say in general agents are anti-author. That is ridiculous.
Ah, and since you brought up mentoring, Sylvia, I’d like to point out that Heather, Jennifer, and some others have had interesting blogs on the subject recently.
Okay, Larry, did I miss something in my own post? Or are you addressing another post?
I never bashed any agents. I commended Wendy on taking on tough topics.
And I mentioned two agents who gave me conflicting advice–which I assumed everyone would know meant that all things in this business are subjective.
If you thought I was agent-bashing, all I can say is “Good grief!”
As for this agency, it just so happens that one of the agents, to whom I have never submitted anything, is high on my list of agents to whom I would like to submit.
If I didn’t think highly of this agency, why would I read their blogs?
I was addressing what you said about how the Books and Such team bravely approach topics, in the context of Wendys’ original post about people bashing agents, which is who I was speaking of when I talked of those who “need to come over here to the Books and Such blog.” Ergo, those who bash agents should come here and read these blogs to better understand what quality agents are like.
I was agreeing with you. 🙂
I have a friend who publishes in secular sci-fi with a traditional publisher. His father, who has also been published traditionally, is now publishing his own e-books. Both are happy.
I’ve read both traditional and self-published books that have been dreck. One problem with self-pubbed books is figuring out what will be dreck BEFORE you buy it. A publisher’s name on a book is still worth something.
I must be in the minority because I’m still pinching myself at how great my editor/publisher has been so far!!
I guess I’ve been really lucky!
Bye.
It has been fun
donnie and Doodle
I think ignorance is the biggest problem. If people had any idea of how the publishing industry worked, they’d know that those things simply weren’t true. Probably they’d figure it out if they just used some common sense.
I think sometimes it might be a case of jealousy – maybe snobbery. Some people (including some authors) feel that to self-publish is to “big note” yourself and think more highly of yourself than you should. I mean, after all, you aren’t one of the “chosen” ones. I’m not published at all yet, but I have friends who have gone the self-publishing road and they have worked jolly hard to market themselves. Self-publishing certainly isn’t for wimps 🙂
Thanks Wendy,
As always, I love your topic. I wish I could help you with this dilemma, but I am in the same boat. With each rejection letter comes discouragement. Even if I believe in my book, and have had my critique group polish my manuscript to perfection, I may still fail to find success in the traditional publisher. I don’t like the idea of paying someone to edit and publish my book either. What can an unknown unpublished “low profile” author do ?